Calvin of rpgo has requested that CharacterProfiler support be removed from WarcraftRealms. In an effort to keep good relations among the mod and website community, I have agreed.
It looks like I will have to reinvent the wheel in order to continue supplying you with a place to host your character profiles. I do apologize for that. Unfortunately I do not have a timeline on when this will be completed.
Thank you for understanding!
Character Profile support removed
Character Profile support removed
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Ha, well isn't that a kick in the pants. I had no idea they were even requesting the file, but I do find it fairly audacious for him to ask me to remove support for CharacterProfiler here, when he is accepting Census data there.
I don't know what they are/were looking to use the data for.
I don't know what they are/were looking to use the data for.
phpbb:phpinfo()
Well, I created an account there a week or so ago to help a friend sort out their guild roster, didn't really work out so unfortunately I've forgotten my pw for the site. I was sort of wondering why they wanted the census file at the time, the only thing I could figure was using data as independant corroboration of other data in some way but should be easier and more effective to mine that from here if needed.
I hope we don't see a trend starting, ui mods mess with each other enough as it is without people getting all proprietary about them
I hope we don't see a trend starting, ui mods mess with each other enough as it is without people getting all proprietary about them
Yes, I emailed him requesting him to stop accepting and using Census+ data in whatever fashion he was using it in. I also made a 1 line post in his forums inquiring as to how he was using the Census+ data but it appears he deleted the post.
Anyway, a bit of good news this morning. I contacted the original author of CharacterProfiler (Angarth) and he gave his blessing to use his code for our purposes here. I will be updating his code and incorporating it into Census+ as an optional feature to continue to allow character profiles here on WR.
Again, I don't have a timeline for the updates but hopefully I'll have it ready to go within a week or so.
Alanthus - Many thanks for bringing it to my attention that they were requesting the C+ data. It was very surprising to me, heh. I am not against making my data available to the public which is shown by the guild and realm exports.
Anyway, a bit of good news this morning. I contacted the original author of CharacterProfiler (Angarth) and he gave his blessing to use his code for our purposes here. I will be updating his code and incorporating it into Census+ as an optional feature to continue to allow character profiles here on WR.
Again, I don't have a timeline for the updates but hopefully I'll have it ready to go within a week or so.
Alanthus - Many thanks for bringing it to my attention that they were requesting the C+ data. It was very surprising to me, heh. I am not against making my data available to the public which is shown by the guild and realm exports.
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Rollie, if I recall correctly from the early days you had nothing against Evic accepting census+ data on his census site and I think that's commendable and very much the right attitude. UI mods are by their nature public add-ons and should be treated as such, being respectful of other people's work, crediting them and largely following their wishes has been the way most sites have dealt with mods since the start.
The only reasons I can think of to limit this use are basically these:
- Large added support burden, ie if a site uses data and this use generates a lot of extra work for the mod writer.
- A mod proves to be useful for exploits in game that either was not originally intended or that did more than originally intended. Curbing further development would of course be a good thing until Blizzard disabled it from their end.
- Using the mod for direct income, essentially selling it or results of it directly. Indirect income like advertising is ok and necessary for us all to have good fan sites but there is a line that should not be crossed.
- Use of the mod that's contrary to original intent not covered above.
Hmmm, and uncomfortable posts tend to disappear without a trace from there yes, personally I disagree with that form of moderating and stay away from boards that do that. Anything removed should always have at least a placeholder stating that something was removed for whatever reason.
The only reasons I can think of to limit this use are basically these:
- Large added support burden, ie if a site uses data and this use generates a lot of extra work for the mod writer.
- A mod proves to be useful for exploits in game that either was not originally intended or that did more than originally intended. Curbing further development would of course be a good thing until Blizzard disabled it from their end.
- Using the mod for direct income, essentially selling it or results of it directly. Indirect income like advertising is ok and necessary for us all to have good fan sites but there is a line that should not be crossed.
- Use of the mod that's contrary to original intent not covered above.
Hmmm, and uncomfortable posts tend to disappear without a trace from there yes, personally I disagree with that form of moderating and stay away from boards that do that. Anything removed should always have at least a placeholder stating that something was removed for whatever reason.
Hyb-
It was to facilitate this type of information:
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/charprofi ... rid=523520 (don't laugh at my crap gear =x )
I'll be adding this in as an optional feature of Census+ in the near future.
It was to facilitate this type of information:
http://www.warcraftrealms.com/charprofi ... rid=523520 (don't laugh at my crap gear =x )
I'll be adding this in as an optional feature of Census+ in the near future.
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Hybuir
- Gear Dependent Squirrel
- Posts: 1471
- Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:22 am
- Location: Austin, TX
- Contact:
Rollie,
I think C+ and all it's projects is one of the best things that I've seen implemented for a game (except maybe for Simpson's Monopoly).
How do you get all the info for the gear? I think it's all pretty much set and available in an uber database already, right?
I think I might have to brush up on my coding and see what I can contribute
I think C+ and all it's projects is one of the best things that I've seen implemented for a game (except maybe for Simpson's Monopoly).
How do you get all the info for the gear? I think it's all pretty much set and available in an uber database already, right?
I think I might have to brush up on my coding and see what I can contribute
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EloranKat
Removing Character Profiler
Hi, I'm Kat, from rpgoutfitter.com.
Calvin tried to take care of this issue as professionally as possible by keeping things private, but Rollie went and started a smear campaign whether intentionally or not. Normally I'm very levelheaded, but I'm getting a bit upset by the way he's presenting all this.
Bottom line is, Rollie never asked to use the addon for his site when he first set out to do character profiles and never thought to ask when presented the opportunity.
Here?s a little information to set the facts straight:
Over a month and 1/2 ago, we requested he develop his own addon, and that he remove use of our addon, or minimally remove ads from such profile pages.
Now with the release of the new addon, we sent him a second request, noting the license is for noncommercial use INCLUDED in the addon, with a link to its full details stating:
"Any of these conditions can be waived if you get permission from RPG Outfitter."
If Rollie had READ the license and realized, 'hey, maybe if I ASK to use it, I won't have to go and go "reinvent the wheel"', maybe he wouldn't be in the quandary he is now...
He had SEVERAL chances, before and after he started using the Character Profiler AS WELL AS after we contacted him to contact us and ASK.
I didn't realize we had to spell it out.
Instead, he went this extremely immature route.
Rollie mentioned in an email to us that we were choosing to "take the road you have instead of potentially work together for mutual benefit". Well, I find that quite funny because we were never once contacted about the use of his addon on his site, so I don't have a reason to believe for a second that there was ever an intent in the first place to "work together".
Also, go check the code he's using for doing the character profiles. You'll find that it's code taken from "wow roster" (wowprofilers.com). There's no credit given to them anywhere that I can see, and I know they were never asked either.
Rollie got "blessngs" from the guy who originally created the Census addon, and likewise from Angarth, but for some reason not Calvin or WoW Rosters? I really don't get it.
And then, yes Alanthus, the extra burden of having to field questions and issues because he pointed the support to us without giving us any heads up about it kinda sucks too. We've gotten several requests now to "make it work" with Rollie's character profiler.
From what we can see, the way Rollie?s handled the whole situation seems very disrespectful of our work and of ALL community developers in general...... It's these types of actions that have caused many addon developers consider copyright and license (just read blizzard's UI-Customization forums).
Kat
RPG Outfitter
Calvin tried to take care of this issue as professionally as possible by keeping things private, but Rollie went and started a smear campaign whether intentionally or not. Normally I'm very levelheaded, but I'm getting a bit upset by the way he's presenting all this.
Bottom line is, Rollie never asked to use the addon for his site when he first set out to do character profiles and never thought to ask when presented the opportunity.
Here?s a little information to set the facts straight:
Over a month and 1/2 ago, we requested he develop his own addon, and that he remove use of our addon, or minimally remove ads from such profile pages.
Now with the release of the new addon, we sent him a second request, noting the license is for noncommercial use INCLUDED in the addon, with a link to its full details stating:
"Any of these conditions can be waived if you get permission from RPG Outfitter."
If Rollie had READ the license and realized, 'hey, maybe if I ASK to use it, I won't have to go and go "reinvent the wheel"', maybe he wouldn't be in the quandary he is now...
He had SEVERAL chances, before and after he started using the Character Profiler AS WELL AS after we contacted him to contact us and ASK.
I didn't realize we had to spell it out.
Instead, he went this extremely immature route.
Rollie mentioned in an email to us that we were choosing to "take the road you have instead of potentially work together for mutual benefit". Well, I find that quite funny because we were never once contacted about the use of his addon on his site, so I don't have a reason to believe for a second that there was ever an intent in the first place to "work together".
Also, go check the code he's using for doing the character profiles. You'll find that it's code taken from "wow roster" (wowprofilers.com). There's no credit given to them anywhere that I can see, and I know they were never asked either.
Rollie got "blessngs" from the guy who originally created the Census addon, and likewise from Angarth, but for some reason not Calvin or WoW Rosters? I really don't get it.
And then, yes Alanthus, the extra burden of having to field questions and issues because he pointed the support to us without giving us any heads up about it kinda sucks too. We've gotten several requests now to "make it work" with Rollie's character profiler.
From what we can see, the way Rollie?s handled the whole situation seems very disrespectful of our work and of ALL community developers in general...... It's these types of actions that have caused many addon developers consider copyright and license (just read blizzard's UI-Customization forums).
Kat
RPG Outfitter
Well from what i'm reading here, you asked him to take it down, because of the ads, which he says he uses to cover server costs and i can believe that as look how many people use the sig maker or data on their guild website. Also you guys asked him to remove the link to your addon from his site, while you continued to use his on yours. Why not just say, he you can use the data from our addon sicne we're using yours, and be all good.
Seems kinda pointless to me, but really, both could use either, as addons are GPL, according to WoW.
Seems kinda pointless to me, but really, both could use either, as addons are GPL, according to WoW.
The Naked Census Dwarves are Back.
First off, I have not started any kind of smear campaign. I made a simple post letting my users know WHY I was removing the Character Profiler area of the site. Go read the post. Nowhere does it say anything that can be construed as a smear campaign.
I'll tell you the exact same thing I told Calvin via email about requesting permission to use the AddOn or the wowprofiler code:
On 8/11, I recieved an email from Calvin requesting that I EITHER remove the ads from the profile area, OR write my own profiler. Not having the time to devote to creating my own profiler and not wanting to reinvent the wheel, I removed the ads from the profile area as requested. To me, the issue was resolved.
The next email was received yesterday informing me of your new request to remove the Character Profiler altogether. Disappointed as I was, I relented and removed the CharacterProfiler upload.
And yes, I did skim the license page and did not see the 'waiver' section. Even had I seen it, going by past dealings, I would not see how permission would have been given anyway.
As I already pointed out in the above quotation, by the nature of the UI mod and the roster script, it is presented to be usable by anyone, at any time. This is not the case for Census+, not for Auctioneer data (yes I have contacted Norganna previously about utilizing the Auctioneer data), and it is not the case in Argath's code since I will be incorporating his code into my own to provide character profiles here.
Never once have I encouraged anyone to go to you guys with support issues surrounding profiles here. If anyone has gone to you of their own accord, I cannot be held responsible for that.
I am sorry that you, Calvin, and/or RPGOutfitters feels disrespected or dishonored. It was never my intent to take credit for anything anyone else has done, and to quite the contrary help promote your AddOn and rostering code through greater use. I was only making use of what was presented as public and open source data in the manner in which it appeared it was created to be used in the first place. The profiler section of the site was still under construction and as such proper credit links had not been put into place yet. If anything, I am guilty of that only and for that I only offer that it was not complete yet.
Now, by your own volition have stated that I have disrespected the community by not having asked your permission to use your data, does that mean you have also disrespected the community by not asking for my persmission to use Census+ data?
Everything you have posted up here, you are equally guilty of and imho, even moreso as the data from Census+ is quite obviously not meant for public consumption and is only available to end users in game and to be uploaded here at WarcraftRealms.com. Not only that, but I openly make guild and realm data available for download, and the rules for using said data have long since been posted on the site since the exports came online.
In closing, if anyone has handled this immaturely, it would appear that it would be you. I did not go into your house and post an inflammatory post such as what you have done here.
I'll tell you the exact same thing I told Calvin via email about requesting permission to use the AddOn or the wowprofiler code:
Open source scripts and data are used every day. Are the end users of these scripts and data supposed to contact the presenters of said scripts and data before they are used? Of course not, and due to the nature of the addon and the scripts, I see no reason to do so here either. By your reasoning, I need to contact the owners of PHP/mySQL/Apache/etc before using their software on the webserver.As for needing to request your permission to use the CharacterProfiler data, do you require this of everyone who wishes to use the data? By the very nature of the mod, it makes itself usable to anyone and everyone to facilitate having their character information available offline. Even the description on curse-gaming states ?This information can then be uploaded to a website to display your character info.? Nowhere did it state any requirements for the type of acceptable websites or intended audience. Granted that has changed with 1.3.x and I am abiding by that at your request, but prior to this, there was no such thing ...
Same goes for the code for Wow Profilers Roster. If it was not meant to be open source, then it should not be presented as such. In the install.txt file accompanying the download, it states ?You can view the open source project at http://wowprofilers.com?.
On 8/11, I recieved an email from Calvin requesting that I EITHER remove the ads from the profile area, OR write my own profiler. Not having the time to devote to creating my own profiler and not wanting to reinvent the wheel, I removed the ads from the profile area as requested. To me, the issue was resolved.
The next email was received yesterday informing me of your new request to remove the Character Profiler altogether. Disappointed as I was, I relented and removed the CharacterProfiler upload.
And yes, I did skim the license page and did not see the 'waiver' section. Even had I seen it, going by past dealings, I would not see how permission would have been given anyway.
As I already pointed out in the above quotation, by the nature of the UI mod and the roster script, it is presented to be usable by anyone, at any time. This is not the case for Census+, not for Auctioneer data (yes I have contacted Norganna previously about utilizing the Auctioneer data), and it is not the case in Argath's code since I will be incorporating his code into my own to provide character profiles here.
Never once have I encouraged anyone to go to you guys with support issues surrounding profiles here. If anyone has gone to you of their own accord, I cannot be held responsible for that.
I am sorry that you, Calvin, and/or RPGOutfitters feels disrespected or dishonored. It was never my intent to take credit for anything anyone else has done, and to quite the contrary help promote your AddOn and rostering code through greater use. I was only making use of what was presented as public and open source data in the manner in which it appeared it was created to be used in the first place. The profiler section of the site was still under construction and as such proper credit links had not been put into place yet. If anything, I am guilty of that only and for that I only offer that it was not complete yet.
Now, by your own volition have stated that I have disrespected the community by not having asked your permission to use your data, does that mean you have also disrespected the community by not asking for my persmission to use Census+ data?
Everything you have posted up here, you are equally guilty of and imho, even moreso as the data from Census+ is quite obviously not meant for public consumption and is only available to end users in game and to be uploaded here at WarcraftRealms.com. Not only that, but I openly make guild and realm data available for download, and the rules for using said data have long since been posted on the site since the exports came online.
In closing, if anyone has handled this immaturely, it would appear that it would be you. I did not go into your house and post an inflammatory post such as what you have done here.
phpbb:phpinfo()
This is a tangle of crap i must say. From the new revlations, (the ads being removed on the char pages) it sounds like Calvin disagreed, for what ever reason. And its true, as i had just downloaded the addon only to see that the uploader is gone, so much for that now lol.
Well lets hope this gets worked out soon, as fighting is pointless.
Well lets hope this gets worked out soon, as fighting is pointless.
The Naked Census Dwarves are Back.
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EloranKat
Just because a pie is sitting out on a ledge to cool and there's no sign to say, DON'T EAT THIS, IT'S FOR MY KIDS, doesn't mean you can go ahead a take it and eat it because it's sitting out for anyone to see.
Likewise, while acceptable use wasn't clearly stated, there was also nothing to state that it was open source or GPL.
When in doubt, ASK. Everything else that happens after you choose a certain path is moot if you don't.
Anyhoo, I agree fighting is pointless. There's no changing the past, and now that things are cleared up, it's all gravy.
Kat
Likewise, while acceptable use wasn't clearly stated, there was also nothing to state that it was open source or GPL.
When in doubt, ASK. Everything else that happens after you choose a certain path is moot if you don't.
Anyhoo, I agree fighting is pointless. There's no changing the past, and now that things are cleared up, it's all gravy.
Kat
Well IMHO what it sounds like is that someone lost traffic to their site or there was a fear of. To be honost I opened an account on the rpgoutfitter.com to see if the profiler was any different from wow.allakhazam.com. To me they all look the same on all three sites. I personally will continue to use the wow.allakhazam.com for my profile display and continue to use warcraftrealms.com for realm statistics. And to ease your mind, I will remove the profiler ui mod from my game and never use rpgoutfitter.com site again. This reminds me of my 6 year old when she doesn't want the other children playing with her Barbies. (Geeezzz, ever watch Sesame Street?)
Fine, you don't want other sites to user your crappy plugin data, Rollie, I will be happy to assist in any way I can to incorporate a version of a said profiler into your plugin. We have talked in the past in private so you know how to get a hold of me.
As for RPGOutfitters.com, good luck with your site and stenginess. We hope you get the traffic you so desire after this flame war you have brought upon yourself. Consider the bridge burned.
TheJoKeR
Fine, you don't want other sites to user your crappy plugin data, Rollie, I will be happy to assist in any way I can to incorporate a version of a said profiler into your plugin. We have talked in the past in private so you know how to get a hold of me.
As for RPGOutfitters.com, good luck with your site and stenginess. We hope you get the traffic you so desire after this flame war you have brought upon yourself. Consider the bridge burned.
TheJoKeR
<img src='http://www.warcraftrealms.com/sig/9967821.jpg'>
EXACTLY!!!Xianna wrote:meow?
Early in the morning, still trying to get my coffee and I read this crap that is going on. So be it, call me a grumpy old fart.
TheJoKeR
<img src='http://www.warcraftrealms.com/sig/9967821.jpg'>
aye im trying to decide if i should go make some coffee and try to sound coherent or just log in and go herb. hour n a half b4 i gotta get the kid up for school even tho i SWEAR i just heard him in the kitchen gettin somethin to drink...
oh and for those who like to do silly things we started an all druid guild to just mess around with if anyone is interested pm me and ill get you info and an invite
oh and for those who like to do silly things we started an all druid guild to just mess around with if anyone is interested pm me and ill get you info and an invite
